Curse

zwei2stein · Mar 02, 2007, 08:36 AM // 08:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

I can guarentee you he sucks at pve too - thats what people in the blue section do.

Yep. (Its actually very funny - e-peen person brings l33test armor and expects to 'pwn n00bs' gets his ass kicked, his ego getting serious hit instead)

Exactly like /tiger person who iwayed it would be stuck in blue section and ruin your DoA trip.

---

Being in blue section has nothing to do with how much you played and what titles/items you amassed. It is state of mind, something that no article will cure.

strcpy · Mar 02, 2007, 09:22 AM // 09:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

So why did I see a Fissure armoured warrior light up with mending ten minutes ago in RA? When a comment was made, he insisted that he knew how to play and he had "Protector of Tyria" to prove it.

Maybe it was me with my celebration of this thread? Did they use Balth's Aura to make sure anyone that thinks they can out damage mending is nub and will die from Extreme Damage? I still haven't had a PvE to PvP article tell my why that doesn't work so I assume it creates a truly invincible build. All I've been told is that mending - by itself - sucks and not to run a fire build on a monk. Nothing about the leetsauce of balth's aura killing anyone who thinks they can live long enough to out damage mending. I'm not doing anything those great super PvP'ers have declared wrong.

I know know that mending doesn't mean I live forever (couldn't figure out how I dies before (THANKS!!!!lol!!!!101!!!), however I'm not so sure that it doesn't work with Balth's Aura. As someone else suggested, Unyielding Aura makes it even better (I haven't needed that yet - blath's + mending has been too uber, I still can not figure out why I die so much though - I hope the next article focuses on that).

Gun Pierson · Mar 02, 2007, 11:13 AM // 11:13

At this point, what's there more to say?

My conclusion:
Some are offended by the article, some are not.
PvE and PvP are 2 different playstyles.
PvE is all wonderful.
PvE is all rubbish.
PvP is all wonderful.
PvP is all rubbish.

This thread will selfdestruct in 10 secs. In other words this thread is mission impossible.

tomcruisejr · Mar 02, 2007, 11:30 AM // 11:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aejorii

My, what a large gathering of carebears we have in this thread.

We, the carebears, are the majority of GW players. It'll be better to piss off the snotty PvPers than us.

ayame ftw · Mar 02, 2007, 12:00 PM // 12:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

The Magenta section contains PvPers. They would breeze through any of the elite missions if they were the least bit interested in the game. Generally these are the pvp'ers that would recognise and complain about poor players.

The Red Section contains PvE'ers. They would be earning Glad points within an hour of trying RA for the first time. It is this group of players this article is offensive to.

The green section we're not concerned with, because they've just bought the game to chat in the great temple.

The 3 blue sections contain your mending wammos and firestorm monks. They suck at playing regardless of what flavour guildwars they choose because they haven't learned how things work yet. These people might actually benefit from what is in the article.

The article is actually aimed at the blue section, but addressed to red section and thats the problem. If they wanted to actually create an article which was aimed at making a pve to pvp transistion they would look at address things like focus swapping, stance cancelling and positioning.

I'm in the pink section so no I'm not a mending wammo - I take issue because I think it is inappropriate for Anet to have an article that insults a large proportion of its gamers with its condescending attitude and tone on the official site.

QFT, just let it go the article is for the people that only have NF

Braggi · Mar 02, 2007, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myrkwid

But all that's written is not the reason why many prople don't move from pve to pvp. It's not the builds, it's not even that you have to "unlearn" anything, you just have to adapt a bit, just like when first entering any endgame area.
<snip>
Basically pvp is somehow like pve, just the enemies have better skillbars and act in a more chaotic and less predictable way

You don't jump right into highranked gvg, you start your way in TA and from there through HA to GvG. And that's where the problems start. TA is pretty friendly towards casual play, but HA is definately not (the reasons have been discussed to death, buildslavery, fotms, rank, etc). In addition there is something missing in between those modes. 8vs8 HA and a semicasual 6vs6 mode or something like that is needed.

Also:
1.) many simply don't like pvp and don't even want to try it, it's not their playing style
2.) many don't feel pvp is rewarding
3.) many, and I think that are the most, feel offended by the rather hostile tone thats used by the pvp community. And that's the most severe problem and it's homegrown by the pvpcommunity.
4.) I know many who don't have a pvp-slot and their pvecharacters are simply lacking and subpaar to any pvponly character due to lack of flexibility in equipment or skills etc. Nobody wanted to take them in their team.

Point 4 is a reason that's not to forget. Almost all players I know ingame come from a pure roleplaying background. The lack of slots hurted them and they were almost forced to fill all slots with pvecharacters and then they either farmed like crazy or were basically unable to pvp outside of the casual modes.

Good points.
1+2, ok
3 maybe, but pve community in endgame areas is very often as goal oriented and elitist as pvp.
4 agreed, and ever more chapters with new skills and character classes will further entrench this, unless you restrict your PvE focus on developing few chars fully, neglecting the rest.

What I feel lacking is the opportunity for casual PvP, especially with my PvE character.
In PvE you can PUG for a long time until you reach the endgame (ignore masters-nuts). In PvP, RA is just an atypical transition (no team planing possible) and TA is already very competitive, because most people there farm for gladiator points. They are no longer here "just to play" and drop fast what they feel are underperforming teams. So if you're not in a PvP guild you ether start to play dedicated PvP with building a solid friends list and eventually join such a guild, or you go AB/ GvG.

Many take offence because the author totally missed the point. He compared a PvE PUG (assuming they are uncoordinated) with a PvP TEAM and then concentrated on a few basics.
The big hurdle is the metagame - not some build assumptions any short visit on a fansite can remedy.

B Ephekt · Mar 02, 2007, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

You've just followed exactly the same flawed logic again. No they're not PvEers they're NEW PLAYERS!!!!

I'm not sure what you're misunderstanding here. Not all pvers are good players. Yes, there are some good pvers who can hold their own in RA (however little that says), but to imply that pve players are good simply by merit of being a pver player is flawed in and of itself. I've seen far too many FoW wearing, Chaos Axe carrying, stance/Riposte tanks in RA to put much stock into what you're saying. These players are obviously pvers - they're decked out in pve gear, and using pve tactics - they're also obviously poor players.

You seem to be saying that pver players can't be bad, without being 'new' players. This is the flawed logic.

Quote:

You seem to think that everyone that makes rudimentary mistakes is a pve'er.

I'm pretty sure I specifically stated that this was not the case. I'm not sure what you're problem with comprehension is....

I'm saying that pver players do make these newbie mistakes, even after having played the game for over a year (ie, they're ceased to be 'new' players). Not all of them, but enough of them to warrant directed statements.

tomcruisejr · Mar 02, 2007, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

I'm not sure what you're misunderstanding here. Not all pvers are good players. Yes, there are some good pvers who can hold their own in RA (however little that says), but to imply that pve players are good simply by merit of being a pver player is flawed in and of itself. I've seen far too many FoW wearing, Chaos Axe carrying, stance/Riposte tanks in RA to put much stock into what you're saying. These players are obviously pvers - they're decked out in pve gear, and using pve tactics - they're also obviously poor players.

Whether they're good players or poor players, the bottomline is that PvErs are contented with what theyre doing and are never writing arrogant articles that insult/malign/make fun of/critique certain groups of players. Let us mind our own businesses I guess?

Tyrnne · Mar 02, 2007, 06:18 PM // 18:18

This quote from the article says it all:

"If you are a Monk, don't cast Fire Magic spells"

Gee, thanks for your brilliant insight. Why shucks, all us PVE Monks cast fire spells. We also use hammers and put all our attribute points into our secondary skills. That's why we don't play PVP. We're just too dang dumb.

DarkSpirit · Mar 02, 2007, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrnne

This quote from the article says it all:

"If you are a Monk, don't cast Fire Magic spells"

I have never ever seen a monk casting fire magic spells anywhere in the game.

Quote:

We also use hammers and put all our attribute points into our secondary skills. That's why we don't play PVP. We're just too dang dumb.

Actually hammers are more popular in PvP than in PvE due to their damage and knockdown.

People put too much emphasis on individual PvPers and skills. GW is not Diablo. You can take the best PvP player, put him in a sucky GvG team and the team would still lose. Conversely, you can put the worse PvP player, let him join the best GvG team while afk, and the team would still win.

GW high end PvP is an effect of teamwork more than individual builds, which is why I said that article is just PvP 101. It is a PvP article for RA players, nothing high end about it.

If you are that concerned about individual PvP builds then you are not a high end PvPers. High end PvPers study team strategies, when to split, when to join, and when to use siege in GvG, etc. Individual builds are such basic concerns, and only starter RA-level PvPers would argue too much about those.

Builds are easy, you can just copy them down from observer mode. But you need a greater level of pvp awareness to appreciate good PvP strategies and teamwork which is often the differentiator in high end matches. This is why simply copying, say, The Last Pride's builds, does not mean your team automatically become as good as them.

Tyrnne · Mar 02, 2007, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

I have never ever seen a monk casting fire magic spells anywhere in the game.

Me either. I once saw a monk with a sword, but that was a level 7 kid on Shing Jea Island with plenty of time to learn. I gave him a staff I didn't need to help him out.

Oops, better not talk about helping someone. I'll get called a PVE care bear.

cellardweller · Mar 02, 2007, 10:51 PM // 22:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

You seem to be saying that pver players can't be bad, without being 'new' players. This is the flawed logic.
I'm pretty sure I specifically stated that this was not the case. I'm not sure what you're problem with comprehension is....

If you're going to say that many pve're are bad players because you see bad players in pve, then all those mending wammos are pvp'ers and pvp'ers suck at pvp.

B Ephekt · Mar 02, 2007, 11:09 PM // 23:09

RA is the lowest common denominator. You see a lot less scrubby stuff in GvG, TA and to a much lesser extend, tombs.

The article seemed to be targeted at those players whose exposure to pvp was limited to RA.

DreamWind · Mar 03, 2007, 12:18 AM // 00:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

You've just followed exactly the same flawed logic again. No they're not PvEers they're NEW PLAYERS!!!! You seem to think that everyone that makes rudimentary mistakes is a pve'er.

Its obvious you're not going to understand without a picture so here you go.

The Magenta section contains PvPers. They would breeze through any of the elite missions if they were the least bit interested in the game. Generally these are the pvp'ers that would recognise and complain about poor players.

The Red Section contains PvE'ers. They would be earning Glad points within an hour of trying RA for the first time. It is this group of players this article is offensive to.

The green section we're not concerned with, because they've just bought the game to chat in the great temple.

The 3 blue sections contain your mending wammos and firestorm monks. They suck at playing regardless of what flavour guildwars they choose because they haven't learned how things work yet. These people might actually benefit from what is in the article.

The article is actually aimed at the blue section, but addressed to red section and thats the problem.

I'm sorry, but your picture is horribly flawed and wrong. The reason is because the PvE player circle would essentially cover most of the entire picture (at least 80% and not 33% like you are suggesting). Thus, the New Player circle would be mostly overlapped with the PvE player circle.

The New Player circle would overlap SOME of the PvP player circle, but not much. That section would be very small because MOST players who play Guild Wars start PvE first and then might play PvP later. Anet knows this, and that is why they make so many articles dealing with PvE to PvP transition because they know that most new players are PvE players and then might move to PvP someday. Anet WANTS their PvP playerbase to grow, and they know the only way to do this is to make articles designed to target PvE players. Simple demographics.

So while the author may have used a bad sentence or two in his article, the fact remains that it was targeted at mostly PvE players who usually don't have much or any experience in PvP.

Gli · Mar 03, 2007, 12:54 AM // 00:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

I'm sorry, but your picture is horribly flawed and wrong. The reason is because the PvE player circle would essentially cover most of the entire picture (at least 80% and not 33% like you are suggesting). Thus, the New Player circle would be mostly overlapped with the PvE player circle.

The New Player circle would overlap SOME of the PvP player circle, but not much. That section would be very small because MOST players who play Guild Wars start PvE first and then might play PvP later.

Diagrams like that aren't meant to show percentiles, they show classifications.

DreamWind · Mar 03, 2007, 01:43 AM // 01:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

Diagrams like that aren't meant to show percentiles, they show classifications.

Eh, I could have made another picture to more clearly show the real story, but my point still stands.

GloryFox · Mar 03, 2007, 01:55 AM // 01:55

Quote:

posted by Tyrnne
Me either. I once saw a monk with a sword, but that was a level 7 kid on Shing Jea Island with plenty of time to learn. I gave him a staff I didn't need to help him out

Why heck you see monks with swords in DoA every day

Whats wrong with monks with swords?

MegaMouse · Mar 03, 2007, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Personaly I never got into the PVP part of Guild Wars when it came out because the PVE part was (and I stress "WAS") rather great. I play Soldier Of Fortune @ online Death matches when I want to kill someone else. I used to be a hard core GW PVE player til the nerf bast got ridiculous and gelded my favorite profession. Originaly the game was about skill and how to use what the gamemaker gave you, thus making you learn what skills actualy did and how they worked. Now the game is about cookie cutter characters and using a limited set of skills that everyone else uses. Where is the fun in that, there is no reason to PVE anymore seeing as the skills are now more broken than before. I can understand fixing a few skills that were not working as planned due to a bug, but nerfing a skill because some idiot says that it is unfair due to their lack of skill is not right.
If I want to go PVP I will stick to games like Unreal Tourney and FPS games like that. I liked Guild Wars for the RPG element and the ability to interact with others socialy, not to be called a noob whenever I went into teh PVP arenas because I didnt have some useless emote or a rank. If they want a PVP game maybe they should make a FPS, but trying to turn GW into a total PVP game will kill it.

Mega Mouse

The Bloodrose · Mar 03, 2007, 02:42 AM // 02:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaMouse

Personaly I never got into the PVP part of Guild Wars when it came out because the PVE part was (and I stress "WAS") rather great. I play Soldier Of Fortune @ online Death matches when I want to kill someone else. I used to be a hard core GW PVE player til the nerf bast got ridiculous and gelded my favorite profession. Originaly the game was about skill and how to use what the gamemaker gave you, thus making you learn what skills actualy did and how they worked. Now the game is about cookie cutter characters and using a limited set of skills that everyone else uses. Where is the fun in that, there is no reason to PVE anymore seeing as the skills are now more broken than before. I can understand fixing a few skills that were not working as planned due to a bug, but nerfing a skill because some idiot says that it is unfair due to their lack of skill is not right.
If I want to go PVP I will stick to games like Unreal Tourney and FPS games like that. I liked Guild Wars for the RPG element and the ability to interact with others socialy, not to be called a noob whenever I went into teh PVP arenas because I didnt have some useless emote or a rank. If they want a PVP game maybe they should make a FPS, but trying to turn GW into a total PVP game will kill it.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

B Ephekt · Mar 03, 2007, 03:06 AM // 03:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaMouse

Personaly I never got into the PVP part of Guild Wars when it came out because the PVE part was (and I stress "WAS") rather great. I play Soldier Of Fortune @ online Death matches when I want to kill someone else. I used to be a hard core GW PVE player til the nerf bast got ridiculous and gelded my favorite profession. Originaly the game was about skill and how to use what the gamemaker gave you, thus making you learn what skills actualy did and how they worked. Now the game is about cookie cutter characters and using a limited set of skills that everyone else uses. Where is the fun in that, there is no reason to PVE anymore seeing as the skills are now more broken than before. I can understand fixing a few skills that were not working as planned due to a bug, but nerfing a skill because some idiot says that it is unfair due to their lack of skill is not right.
If I want to go PVP I will stick to games like Unreal Tourney and FPS games like that. I liked Guild Wars for the RPG element and the ability to interact with others socialy, not to be called a noob whenever I went into teh PVP arenas because I didnt have some useless emote or a rank. If they want a PVP game maybe they should make a FPS, but trying to turn GW into a total PVP game will kill it.

Mega Mouse

I think the point is that MMO-type games offer a lot of depth and strategy to pvp (although GW is the first to get pvp right). FPSes are fun - I've played them online since Quake 1 - but they get old after a while. And really, if you've been playing FPSes for any decent amount of time, cleaning up pubs gets boring as hell.

Plus, I always found pve in this game to be notably bad.

Guild Wars is already a pvp-focused game though.